March 31, 2025
The Behavior Problem School Counselors Aren't Supposed to Talk About
⭐️ Join the School for School Counselors Mastermind today to become the school counselor you were meant to be. ⭐️
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You get the call:
“Can you come get this student?”
But when you walk in, it’s clear- this isn’t really about the kid.
It’s about stress. Dysregulation. Maybe even burnout. For the adult.
And if school counselors keep stepping in without asking bigger questions, we’re not solving the problem… we’re just keeping the cycle going.
In this episode, we’re talking about:
- How to tell when a referral isn’t about student behavior
- The Five-Minute Behavior Consult you can use with teachers today
- How to support staff without becoming the fixer
- Why this shift protects your energy- and your job
If behavior support is starting to feel like your full-time job, this episode is for you.
00:00 Introduction: The Daily Struggles of School Counselors
02:10 Understanding Adult Dysregulation in Schools
07:17 Identifying Signs of Adult-Induced Student Behavior Issues
11:30 The Five Minute Behavior Consult: A Solution-Focused Approach
17:35 Implementing Change Despite Administrative Challenges
21:00 The Role of School Counselors in Shaping School Culture
24:40 Elevating the Role of School Counselors
References:
Gallup. (2022, June 1). K-12 workers have highest burnout rate in U.S. Gallup News. https://news.gallup.com/poll/393500/workers-highest-burnout-rate.aspx
Schwartz, S. (2022, June 15). Stress, burnout, depression: Teachers and principals are not OK right now, new data confirm. Education Week. https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/stress-burnout-depression-teachers-and-principals-are-not-doing-well-new-data-confirm/2022/06
Steiner, E. D., & Woo, A. (2021). Job-related stress threatens the teacher supply: Key findings from the 2021 State of the U.S. Teacher Survey (RR-A1108-1). RAND Corporation. https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RRA1108-1.html
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Chapters
00:00 - The True Behavior Problem
04:36 - Adult Dysregulation and Classroom Dynamics
07:26 - Signs It's Not Really the Student
11:44 - The Five-Minute Behavior Consult
18:01 - Reclaiming Your Role as School Counselor
21:31 - From Behavior Bouncer to Strategic Leader
Transcript
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00:00:00.119 --> 00:00:14.487
You are elbows deep in a student check-in, maybe you're helping students work through a conflict, or you're helping somebody calm down, and then the phone rings Come get this student, I have had enough.
00:00:14.487 --> 00:00:17.448
And just like that, your day shifts.
00:00:17.448 --> 00:00:23.772
You're walking down the hallway toward another behavior situation again.
00:00:23.772 --> 00:00:25.344
Maybe it's your third one in the week.
00:00:25.344 --> 00:00:29.522
Maybe it's your third one in the week, maybe it's your third one in a day.
00:00:29.522 --> 00:00:37.002
And, if we're being honest, these situations get to where they're not even about the student anymore.
00:00:37.002 --> 00:00:42.609
Here's the truth that nobody really wants to say out loud.
00:00:42.609 --> 00:00:49.661
Sometimes, the real behavior problem isn't the student, it's the adult in the room.
00:00:49.661 --> 00:01:03.009
And when we, as school counselors, jump in to fix those issues, every time we become part of the problem Ouch, that hurts, doesn't it?
00:01:03.009 --> 00:01:10.588
We are helpers, we want to make things better, and that's a bitter pill to swallow.
00:01:10.588 --> 00:01:20.953
I know that because I've been there, but I'm telling you we have some solutions to this so that you don't have to worry anymore.
00:01:20.953 --> 00:01:35.143
Hey there, welcome back to the School for School Counselors podcast, where we talk about what's really happening on school campuses in real time and how you can show up with confidence, clarity and strategy.
00:01:35.143 --> 00:01:47.073
I'm Steph Johnson, a full-time school counselor just like you, who believes that you don't need fluff or gimmicks or pre-made printables to do powerful, impactful work.
00:01:47.073 --> 00:01:52.433
You just need real talk, real skills and a little bit of backup.
00:01:52.433 --> 00:02:03.769
And that's what I'm here to do each and every week, whether you're listening on your drive to school during your lunch break or hiding in an office closet for five minutes of peace.
00:02:03.769 --> 00:02:06.340
And I know because I've been there.
00:02:06.340 --> 00:02:08.907
I am so glad you're here.
00:02:10.390 --> 00:02:24.670
We've been talking a lot about behavior intervention for the past four episodes and we're going to continue today because, like it or not, this is probably a big part of your job, especially during particular times of the year.
00:02:24.670 --> 00:02:43.543
Several months ago, in episode 111, we took a big picture look at what happens when adults on campus are dysregulated, what it looks like, what's driving all of that and how we as school counselors can help without stepping on toes.
00:02:43.543 --> 00:02:53.033
So if you missed that episode, you might want to go back and give it a listen, because it provides a great foundation for today's conversation.
00:02:53.033 --> 00:02:56.627
So now we're zooming in.
00:02:56.627 --> 00:03:05.390
We're talking about what you do when that adult dysregulation turns into a behavior referral for a student.
00:03:05.390 --> 00:03:08.848
What do you say when the call comes through again?
00:03:08.848 --> 00:03:13.532
And you know the issue probably isn't the student at all.
00:03:15.283 --> 00:03:27.661
Now I want to be real with you for a second, because I know that you work on a campus just like I do, so you know as well as I do that many of the folks that we work with are not open to feedback.
00:03:27.661 --> 00:03:38.712
They are not interested in changing anything about how they've been handling things in their classrooms and, truth be told, some of them are barely holding it together.
00:03:38.712 --> 00:03:43.864
There are some recent studies that showcase this reality.
00:03:43.864 --> 00:04:12.221
According to a 2022 Gallup poll, 44% of K-12 teachers in the US reported feeling burned out often or always, and that was a rate higher than in any other profession other profession.
00:04:12.221 --> 00:04:22.863
Nearly three-fourths of teachers and 85% of principals experience frequent job-related stress, and this kind of mass burnout affects not only educators' well-being but their capacity to manage their classrooms effectively.
00:04:22.863 --> 00:04:33.487
So that ends up putting us in a really weird space, because we know nothing is going to truly change unless the adult changes.
00:04:33.487 --> 00:04:56.910
But we also don't want to damage those relationships or risk coming across like we're judging people who already feel like they're maxed out, and this is the moment where most of us I mean, we just give in, we go get the kid, we try to smooth things over and we become the fixer again.
00:04:56.910 --> 00:05:16.553
But I want to remind you of something that I have said in every behavior-related episode in this series, because it is 1,000% true If you keep intervening in the symptoms, the root of the issue never gets addressed.
00:05:16.553 --> 00:05:23.293
And in these situations, the root concern may not be student behavior at all.
00:05:23.293 --> 00:05:29.182
Concern may not be student behavior at all.
00:05:29.201 --> 00:05:31.365
We often talk about dysregulated students Feels like every day, doesn't it?
00:05:31.365 --> 00:05:38.622
But let's switch gears and let's talk about dysregulated adults, because here's what we know.
00:05:38.622 --> 00:05:45.254
We know that the adult nervous system sets the tone for a classroom.
00:05:45.254 --> 00:05:53.194
We know that stress is contagious and that dysregulation spreads.
00:05:53.194 --> 00:05:59.132
If you don't believe me, go hang out in a pre-kindergarten or kindergarten classroom sometime.
00:05:59.132 --> 00:06:08.274
We know that what looks like bad behavior is sometimes a reaction to adult energy.
00:06:08.274 --> 00:06:15.293
And we also know that you cannot out-intervene a dysregulated classroom.
00:06:15.293 --> 00:06:20.211
It is like showing up and trying to plug a volcano with a Band-Aid.
00:06:20.211 --> 00:06:21.646
It's not going to work.
00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:25.406
But let me be super clear here.
00:06:25.406 --> 00:06:28.533
This isn't about blaming our teachers.
00:06:28.533 --> 00:06:37.675
They are all trying their absolute best with ridiculous expectations in place for their work.
00:06:37.675 --> 00:06:41.843
It's chaotic, it's overwhelming.
00:06:41.843 --> 00:06:51.036
And honestly, think to yourself would you raise your hand to volunteer to go teach full-time in a classroom right now?
00:06:51.036 --> 00:06:54.545
I'm guessing no.
00:06:54.545 --> 00:07:09.326
But if we only respond to student behavior and we never take a step back to assess the adult dynamic in the room, then we're just putting out smoke and the fire is still burning.
00:07:10.608 --> 00:07:15.964
So we've got to look at what's underneath chronic student misbehavior.
00:07:15.964 --> 00:07:21.555
Are there ways that we can tell when it's not really the kid?
00:07:21.555 --> 00:07:23.742
Here are some signs.
00:07:23.742 --> 00:07:29.000
One, the student only struggles in one or two classrooms.
00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:36.901
Or the teacher tells you things like I have tried everything, but they can't give you specifics.
00:07:36.901 --> 00:07:46.634
Third, the teacher's complaint or referral feels very emotional, very vague or very reactionary.
00:07:46.634 --> 00:07:53.454
You might hear phrases like they're always doing whatever or they never whatever.
00:07:53.454 --> 00:07:55.024
That's very common.
00:07:55.024 --> 00:08:05.026
Or fourth and this is a great tell the student immediately calms down when you remove them from the environment.
00:08:05.026 --> 00:08:09.266
Student immediately calms down when you remove them from the environment.
00:08:09.266 --> 00:08:13.983
Have you ever had a student that the moment you show up and say, hey, let's get out of here for a minute, they go right with you with no problems?
00:08:13.983 --> 00:08:20.262
Now that could be a testament to the great relationship that you've built with that student.
00:08:20.262 --> 00:08:26.293
But at the same time it's also a cue that something is not right in the environment.
00:08:26.293 --> 00:08:29.444
These are all signals.
00:08:29.444 --> 00:08:32.272
They don't mean the teacher is doing something wrong.
00:08:32.272 --> 00:08:55.693
They probably mean that the adult in that classroom the teacher is overwhelmed, feels unsupported and probably doesn't know what else to do, which creates a beautiful opportunity for you not to rescue but to consult about student behavior.
00:08:57.520 --> 00:09:38.234
Now, before we get into how you can protect yourself from being the constant on-call behavior fireman on your campus, we need to talk a second about you, because if you're the one that's always stepping in, if you're the one that's always called to calm things down, if you're the one walking students out of classrooms and up and down the hallways and if you're the one taking heat off of the teachers you're also teaching staff that you're always going to be there to save the day and y'all that has consequences, like it or not, you're going to end up feeling drained.
00:09:38.234 --> 00:10:00.561
I remember so many times on a particular campus that when I heard an initial call out on the walkie, I immediately braced myself and got super tense before I even knew if the call was for me, because I had been in super reactive mode for so long and had felt overwhelmed with behavior requests for so long.
00:10:00.561 --> 00:10:07.193
I just knew I was ready to spring into action and it was a terrible feeling to have all day long.
00:10:07.193 --> 00:10:18.985
So you get drained, but you also start to lose credibility as a leader on your campus and then Nobody grows.
00:10:18.985 --> 00:10:24.412
So we're not talking about being resistant to helping.
00:10:24.412 --> 00:10:33.075
We're talking about teaching a healthy respect for your role at your school and for the long-term impacts.
00:10:35.001 --> 00:10:37.409
So how do we reset your role?
00:10:37.409 --> 00:10:43.253
How do we move you from the fixer to the consultant?
00:10:43.253 --> 00:10:48.029
When you get that call, can you come get this student?
00:10:48.029 --> 00:10:49.544
I need this student removed.
00:10:49.544 --> 00:11:06.293
Pause, ask yourself is this a true behavior crisis or is this a moment where I could show up, not to remove, but to serve as a resource?
00:11:06.293 --> 00:11:10.144
You are not a classroom manager.
00:11:10.144 --> 00:11:14.253
You're not the emergency removal service for the school.
00:11:14.253 --> 00:11:29.167
You are a strategic support for students and staff, and that means you can step into these situations with a purpose and a plan to change the extent of your involvement.
00:11:30.750 --> 00:11:36.307
One amazing way that you can do that is through the five-minute behavior consult.
00:11:36.307 --> 00:11:41.201
This is where your solution-focused counseling skills come into play.
00:11:41.201 --> 00:11:48.628
Don't panic, because when we talk about solution-focused counseling, we imagine counseling sessions.
00:11:48.628 --> 00:11:51.721
Right, that's not what I'm asking you to do.
00:11:51.721 --> 00:11:56.360
I don't think you should be scheduling teachers for 15-minute meetings in the middle of your day.
00:11:56.360 --> 00:12:03.355
I think you need something more simple, something faster and something equally as powerful.
00:12:03.355 --> 00:12:15.480
So the five-minute behavior consult serves as a fast, future-focused conversation that has roots in solution-focused principles.
00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:22.094
It helps the teacher move from I'm stuck to I have something I can try.
00:12:22.094 --> 00:12:27.243
Move from I'm stuck to I have something I can try.
00:12:27.243 --> 00:12:32.813
So if you know your solution-focused counseling principles, you know that when we engage in this type of conversation, we focus on what's working.
00:12:32.813 --> 00:12:42.013
We're going to ask future-oriented questions what would things look like if they were just 10% better?
00:12:42.013 --> 00:12:55.870
And we're going to empower teachers, because we're not solving the problem, we're not throwing a bunch of strategies at them, we're just helping them find the next best step.
00:12:58.342 --> 00:13:08.573
Whether you catch this teacher in the hallway in passing, you stop by after a class or you send a quick email, you can use this structure every single time.
00:13:08.573 --> 00:13:16.919
First, we're going to ask what's happening and we need to ask for specific behavior.
00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:27.254
If we hear labels like he's out of control or she's always out of her her seat, or he's constantly disrupting the class, that doesn't help.
00:13:27.254 --> 00:13:32.231
We need to know specifically what are the behaviors that are happening.
00:13:32.231 --> 00:13:36.490
Second, when does it happen?
00:13:36.490 --> 00:13:41.000
Can we find patterns, to uncover triggers.
00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:45.826
Is it the time of day, the subject being taught?
00:13:45.826 --> 00:13:47.947
Is it transition times?
00:13:47.947 --> 00:13:49.886
Is it proximity to peers?
00:13:49.886 --> 00:13:54.006
There are all kinds of possibilities here, so let's narrow it down.
00:13:55.520 --> 00:14:01.690
Then, after we've defined what's happening and when it happens, we ask what's been tried already?
00:14:01.690 --> 00:14:13.846
This avoids us repeating the things the teacher's already done, because how many times have you seen folks kind of roll their eyes and throw their hands up in exasperation and say I've already done that.
00:14:13.846 --> 00:14:18.023
They're going to feel frustrated with you and like you're trying to reinvent the wheel.
00:14:18.023 --> 00:14:25.222
We want to avoid that and we also want to show the teacher that the efforts they've put in so far are seen.
00:14:25.222 --> 00:14:32.061
And then, fourth, out of the things you've tried, what's worked, even if it was just a tiny bit?
00:14:32.061 --> 00:14:42.125
This is a key right here, because even partial success is going to lead you toward what can really work.
00:14:42.125 --> 00:14:50.129
And then, last, we're going to ask what one small thing do you think you could try next?
00:14:50.129 --> 00:14:57.913
We're not aiming at a full overhaul, we're just looking at that next best step.
00:14:57.913 --> 00:15:09.878
What does that teacher feel they can actually do today without needing to get any training or an extra prep period or a miracle right?
00:15:09.878 --> 00:15:14.863
What one small thing can they try.
00:15:14.883 --> 00:15:17.389
So let me recap that, because that is powerful.
00:15:17.389 --> 00:15:24.240
It is so simple on one level and so profound on another.
00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:24.980
What's happening?
00:15:24.980 --> 00:15:27.042
When does it happen?
00:15:27.042 --> 00:15:29.423
What's been tried already?
00:15:29.423 --> 00:15:37.687
What's worked, even just a little bit, and what one small thing would you like to try next?
00:15:37.687 --> 00:16:00.118
If we ask these questions and we're very intentional about the conversation, it won't fix everything, but it will create movement and when people feel a little bit of momentum, they're more hopeful, they're more confident and they become way more open to change.
00:16:00.118 --> 00:16:39.760
And then here's the part about this that most people miss After you've had this conversation and the teacher has committed to that one small next step, you circle back, check in with them, give them some encouragement, reinforce not only the student's progress but the teacher's progress too, because if we're real about what it's like to work on a school campus, most teachers do not get positive feedback unless it's like teacher appreciation week or something like that.
00:16:40.984 --> 00:16:46.123
Your support might be the one thing that keeps them from walking out the door.
00:16:46.123 --> 00:17:15.970
If your administrators are not already empowering teachers in tough situations, or if they don't truly understand what it takes to rebuild a classroom dynamic, you have the opportunity to step in quietly but powerfully and with intention and, as a bonus, when that teacher feels more confident managing a student's behavior, it's one less behavior referral for you.
00:17:15.970 --> 00:17:21.326
Sounds great, right, sounds amazing.
00:17:21.326 --> 00:17:24.462
We'll have these quick consults with teachers.
00:17:24.462 --> 00:17:45.960
They'll be solution focused, we'll lead them toward the next best step and we won't be running to classrooms all the time to extricate students, won't let you step back from in-the-moment behavior intervention.
00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:56.028
What if somehow, somewhere, you inadvertently drew the short straw and you are the de facto behavior crisis response on your canvas and no one's willing to back off of that expectation for you?
00:17:56.028 --> 00:17:58.032
What do you do then?
00:17:58.032 --> 00:18:00.007
This is where it gets sticky.
00:18:00.007 --> 00:18:07.463
But I promise you we don't have to throw this five-minute consultation approach out the window.
00:18:07.463 --> 00:18:13.383
You still have room to shift, even when it feels like things are never going to change.
00:18:14.846 --> 00:18:15.926
Here's how you can do it.
00:18:15.926 --> 00:18:20.461
First, you can start layering in consults.
00:18:20.461 --> 00:18:29.115
So, even if you're walking in that classroom and removing that student, you can offer to circle back with the teacher.
00:18:29.115 --> 00:18:32.829
You can come back around when things are calmer.
00:18:32.829 --> 00:18:37.251
You can ask a question, maybe lead them toward a small shift.
00:18:37.251 --> 00:18:40.960
You can begin communicating your expertise.
00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:45.000
You can begin communicating your expertise.
00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:49.279
You do not just have to physically use your body to remove the student, to create change in that classroom.
00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:51.888
Circle back and just layer in the consults.
00:18:53.661 --> 00:18:57.471
Secondly, show your administrators what you're seeing.
00:18:57.471 --> 00:19:06.049
This is where your data comes in clutch Track how often you're called for these behavior concerns.
00:19:06.049 --> 00:19:10.351
How long does it pull you away from what you were supposed to be doing?
00:19:10.351 --> 00:19:15.991
What percentage of your week are behavior crisis calls taking up?
00:19:15.991 --> 00:19:50.105
Now, if you're not sure how to start that process or you feel overwhelmed in capturing your use of time data, that's something that we work on all the time in our School for School Counselors, mastermind, because we know your numbers, tell your story and we have so many members in the Mastermind that have done just that To be able to make a case for additional supports, for better accommodations and even to keep their current jobs.
00:19:50.105 --> 00:19:52.609
We know how to do this.
00:19:52.609 --> 00:20:04.411
So if you're having trouble with that data, come join us and let us help you out, because if you don't show your administrators through your data, what's going on, nobody else is going to do it.
00:20:05.780 --> 00:20:08.871
That's showing strategy, not refusal.
00:20:08.871 --> 00:20:14.672
So it's not about rebelling against the expectation for you at your school.
00:20:14.672 --> 00:20:18.990
It's just about realigning your intents and purposes.
00:20:18.990 --> 00:20:25.982
Your intents and purposes.
00:20:25.982 --> 00:20:29.099
So we've talked about how to tell when it's not really a concern with the student so much as it is with the adult in the room.
00:20:29.099 --> 00:20:51.354
We've talked about strategically shifting from being the behavior fixer to the behavior consultant, and we've talked about how you can conduct a five-minute behavior consult with teachers in a solution-focused way to empower them to find their next best steps.
00:20:51.354 --> 00:20:58.686
And we even talked about what to do if your administration is reluctant to let you do all of that.
00:21:00.285 --> 00:21:04.690
But now let's zoom out a minute, because I don't know if you know this.
00:21:04.690 --> 00:21:19.601
I just learned about it recently but the National Association of Social Workers just dropped their new school social work framework and y'all, they did not hold back.
00:21:19.601 --> 00:21:35.881
They are stepping very boldly into the space that school counselors used to own and they are talking about things like ethics, decision-making, record-keeping, multi-tiered interventions, mental health, coordination.
00:21:35.881 --> 00:21:38.425
It is all in that plan.
00:21:38.425 --> 00:21:48.625
Now listen, before you get worried, this isn't about competition, but it is about clarity.
00:21:48.625 --> 00:22:09.326
Because of the weakness and the ineptitude of your national organization yes, I said it the American School Counselor Association has not done a good job of developing awareness or garnering support for our work.
00:22:09.326 --> 00:22:15.039
They have stood on the sidelines, produced a bunch of paper work.
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:17.644
They have stood on the sidelines, produced a bunch of paper and have pointed fingers saying thou shalt not.
00:22:17.644 --> 00:22:20.568
Because of that, we are being challenged.
00:22:20.568 --> 00:22:34.590
And so, as a grassroots effort, I know that if we do not claim our space as experts in school counseling, there are more than enough folks who will be glad to step into our shoes.
00:22:35.799 --> 00:22:41.333
Now is not the time to be the person that comes and picks up a student and disappears.
00:22:41.333 --> 00:22:56.074
Now is the time that we should be leading with strategy and skills and clarity about what school counselors actually do.
00:22:56.074 --> 00:23:10.429
And when you approach behavior support through the lens of real counseling, like solution-focused approaches, you're not just helping students, you're proving your value.
00:23:10.429 --> 00:23:13.374
You're helping protect your role.
00:23:13.374 --> 00:23:19.221
You're proving your value, you're helping protect your role and you're elevating your job on campus.
00:23:19.301 --> 00:23:23.066
My friend, you were never intended to be a behavior bouncer.
00:23:23.066 --> 00:23:33.316
You are not on your campus to be the emotional shock absorber and you are not there to be the Band-Aid every time something breaks.
00:23:33.316 --> 00:23:58.144
You are there to lead, and sometimes leadership looks like walking toward a dysregulated teacher or adult, not with judgment, but with calm and clarity and compassion, and saying what's going on, what's worked, even just a little bit, what do you think we can try.
00:23:58.144 --> 00:24:06.766
Next, it looks like helping your staff take one step forward and then showing up again the next day to reinforce their success.
00:24:06.766 --> 00:24:18.567
It looks like modeling what a regulated, strategic adult actually looks like, especially when everybody on your campus seems to be running on empty.
00:24:18.567 --> 00:24:32.711
So the next time that the phone rings and somebody says, come get this kid, take a breath, hold your ground and remember it's not just about helping the student.
00:24:34.071 --> 00:24:39.017
It's time to change the culture around behavior intervention.
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Now, after listening, if you're still not sure how this could possibly work on your campus, you're probably not alone.
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This is a huge undertaking and it's one that's going to take time.
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I'm actually going to release a mini episode later this week, all about the common objections that school counselors are going to have to this approach, and then I'm going to show you how to make it work, even if you're not in an ideal situation.
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Sound good?
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Hey, I have enjoyed all of this behavior talk and I hope that it has been helpful to you.
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The number one goal of this podcast is to bring you the best and evidence-based best practice information for your school counseling program, because so often you get taken advantage of, you're overutilized and misappropriated and y'all.
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It's time to change that.
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You spent years of study and tens of thousands of dollars to enter this career field and I know that you're amazing at what you do, and one of the ways I know that is that you're here listening to this podcast when you could be doing anything else in the world.
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You've decided to listen, to become better at your craft, and so I know you are world class, and I am so grateful and humbled that you spent a little of your time with me.
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I'll be back soon with another episode of the School for School Counselors podcast.
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In the meantime, I hope you have the best week.
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Take care.
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