March 2, 2026
You’re Not the Behavior Department
Is managing student behavior actually school counseling? If you’re spending most of your week handling behavior referrals, putting out fires, and decoding defiance before you’ve even opened your calendar… this episode draws a line most schools never clearly defined. Because somewhere along the way, behavior didn’t just increase. It migrated. And it landed in the school counselor’s office. In this episode, we unpack how school counselors quietly became the default behavior managers in many bui...
Is managing student behavior actually school counseling?
If you’re spending most of your week handling behavior referrals, putting out fires, and decoding defiance before you’ve even opened your calendar… this episode draws a line most schools never clearly defined.
Because somewhere along the way, behavior didn’t just increase.
It migrated.
And it landed in the school counselor’s office.
In this episode, we unpack how school counselors quietly became the default behavior managers in many buildings when discipline structures softened without being clearly replaced.
You’ll hear:
- How PBIS and trauma-informed shifts reshaped discipline systems- and what that meant for school counseling roles
- Why behavior intervention and school counseling are different specialties
- What burnout research actually says about non-counseling duties
- The simple line that helps you sort capacity from compliance in real time
If behavior has been swallowing your week, this conversation will help you see what belongs to you... and what doesn’t.
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All names, stories, and case studies in this episode are fictionalized composites drawn from real-world circumstances. Any resemblance to actual students, families, or school personnel is coincidental. Details have been altered to protect privacy.
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Ready to spend a few days this summer with me, geeking out over school counseling and preparing for your best year ever? Grab your ticket here before this limited-seat event sells out!
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This work is part of the School for School Counselors body of work developed by Steph Johnson, LPC, CSC, which centers role authority over role drift, consultative practice over fix-it culture, adult-designed systems and environments as primary drivers of student behavior, clinical judgment over compliance, and school counselor identity as leadership within complex systems.
00:13 - A Morning Of Behavior Referrals
02:52 - Is This Really School Counseling
03:39 - The Guiding Line: Capacity Or Compliance
05:02 - A Shortcut For Sorting Referrals
07:02 - How The System Lost Accountability
10:11 - Counselors Become The Default Door
15:22 - Training Mismatch: Counseling Vs ABA
20:27 - PBIS And Trauma-Informed Waves
25:02 - Burnout Drivers And Identity
28:27 - Making The Line Concrete
WEBVTT
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By 10:15 a.m., you're already essentially running a behavior clinic, and your coffee is still untouched.
00:00:15.800 --> 00:00:18.519
You just don't call it a behavior clinic.
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The first kid refused to work.
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Second kid cussed out a teacher.
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Third kid walked out of class again.
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None of them were scheduled to see you, but all of them were sent.
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You haven't even opened your calendar yet.
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So you listen, you nod, you ask what happened, and then you ask what they were feeling.
00:00:40.760 --> 00:00:43.879
You try to figure out what's beneath it all.
00:00:44.120 --> 00:00:50.439
And while you're doing that, an unsettling thought slides through your brain.
00:00:51.159 --> 00:00:54.920
Is this actually school counseling?
00:00:55.239 --> 00:00:58.920
You don't say it out loud because everybody says the same thing, right?
00:00:59.079 --> 00:01:01.000
Behavior is communication.
00:01:01.319 --> 00:01:05.560
So you take the student because that's what school counselors do.
00:01:06.680 --> 00:01:11.320
When I started in this field, I didn't question that logic for a second.
00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:13.400
Behavior is communication.
00:01:13.719 --> 00:01:17.000
Students communicate distress through behavior.
00:01:17.240 --> 00:01:19.799
So it must be my job.
00:01:20.040 --> 00:01:22.359
And nobody ever told me otherwise.
00:01:22.680 --> 00:01:25.560
And here's what makes this really ironic.
00:01:26.280 --> 00:01:35.719
I had the blessing, and depending on how you look at it, the misfortune of being mentored early on by a school psychologist.
00:01:36.120 --> 00:01:38.760
So I learned behavior intervention well.
00:01:39.000 --> 00:01:41.799
Function, reinforcement, data collection.
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I got really, really good at it.
00:01:44.359 --> 00:01:49.719
And do you know what happens when you get really good at behavior intervention?
00:01:50.359 --> 00:01:52.840
You get more behavior intervention.
00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:56.520
It didn't lighten my load, it deepened it.
00:01:57.240 --> 00:02:04.760
This past Saturday, inside our mastermind coffee chat, I just asked how everybody's week ended.
00:02:05.079 --> 00:02:07.799
And all of a sudden, everybody erupted.
00:02:07.960 --> 00:02:16.200
And school counselors from all over the country started talking all at once, saying things like, I feel like I do nothing but behavior now.
00:02:16.520 --> 00:02:19.960
I barely see my actual counseling kids.
00:02:20.280 --> 00:02:24.039
And this time of year is brutal.
00:02:24.360 --> 00:02:26.599
Y'all, they weren't being dramatic, right?
00:02:26.680 --> 00:02:28.920
They were just so tired.
00:02:29.560 --> 00:02:32.120
And it kind of hit me in that moment.
00:02:32.439 --> 00:02:41.000
You know, in school counseling, we never really defined the line between counseling need and behavior intervention.
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And if you don't, everything crosses it.
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Hey, school counselor, if that question is this really school counseling, has ever crossed your mind while a student was sitting across from you, you've been asking the right question.
00:02:55.319 --> 00:02:58.280
And in today's episode, we're going to answer it.
00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:01.800
You are being asked to do work you were never trained for.
00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:06.920
And the system that put that work on your desk has no intention of explaining why.
00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:11.319
By the time we're done today, I want to give you a powerful line.
00:03:11.479 --> 00:03:17.000
One you can use to see your work clearly every time a behavior referral lands on your desk.
00:03:17.240 --> 00:03:27.159
So if you're ready for some straight talk, my friend, some clarity on your work and maybe a little bit of rebellion, you're gonna be in the right place.
00:03:27.319 --> 00:03:32.039
I'm Steph Johnson, and this is the School for School Counselors podcast.
00:03:33.479 --> 00:03:40.280
So before I take you through how this happened, let me just give you the powerful line I just mentioned.
00:03:40.520 --> 00:03:44.680
Because once you have that, you're gonna hear everything else differently.
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Counseling builds capacity, discipline sets limits.
00:03:52.439 --> 00:03:59.159
If you can start sorting the referrals coming across your desk through that lens, your week changes.
00:03:59.319 --> 00:04:05.719
And today I'm gonna show you exactly how to do it, even when the behaviors look identical on the surface.
00:04:05.960 --> 00:04:11.080
Here's a quick example a student tells a teacher to shut up and storms out.
00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:18.599
If that student does it with every adult every day across settings, we're looking at a capacity problem.
00:04:19.240 --> 00:04:23.879
Regulation, skills, those are all in your wheelhouse.
00:04:24.199 --> 00:04:32.919
If that same student can keep it together for the coach but explodes every day in third period, that's not a counseling problem first.
00:04:33.239 --> 00:04:35.719
That's a structure problem first.
00:04:36.439 --> 00:04:41.479
One shortcut that you can carry into any behavior referral that you get.
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If the student can do it somewhere, it's not a question of capacity.
00:04:45.959 --> 00:04:49.799
It's a structure problem, and those go elsewhere.
00:04:50.119 --> 00:04:55.799
So hold on to that, and I'm gonna show you how this whole situation got started in the first place.
00:04:56.039 --> 00:04:58.119
Because it didn't just start in your building.
00:04:58.199 --> 00:05:00.039
I know sometimes it feels that way.
00:05:00.279 --> 00:05:03.239
We've got to go back about 10 or 15 years.
00:05:03.560 --> 00:05:08.439
School discipline data was getting serious attention and for very good reason.
00:05:08.759 --> 00:05:14.679
The racial disparities in school discipline are real and documented by the U.S.
00:05:14.919 --> 00:05:18.359
Department of Education's own civil rights data.
00:05:18.679 --> 00:05:25.639
Black students have been suspended at two to three times the rate of white students for the same behaviors.
00:05:25.959 --> 00:05:30.279
That data deserved to be taken seriously, and it still does.
00:05:30.599 --> 00:05:36.199
The pressure to change course back then was real and it was warranted.
00:05:36.519 --> 00:05:46.039
Zero tolerance policies had created real damage with suspensions for minor infractions and accelerated pathways to the juvenile justice system.
00:05:46.359 --> 00:05:49.959
And that harm was impossible to ignore.
00:05:50.279 --> 00:05:55.319
But here's what nobody said out loud during all of this recalibration.
00:05:55.959 --> 00:06:00.839
Pulling back from punitive discipline didn't mean that we replaced it with something better.
00:06:01.079 --> 00:06:04.759
In too many buildings, it was replaced with nothing.
00:06:05.239 --> 00:06:08.039
The accountability structure didn't evolve.
00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:09.560
It dissolved.
00:06:09.959 --> 00:06:19.079
Administrators who issued consequences, who held behavioral expectations, who sent students to the office, started getting a label.
00:06:19.239 --> 00:06:28.759
They were punitive, not trauma-informed, and behind the times, compliance became the path of least professional risk.
00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:32.199
You didn't have to believe in the philosophy of all of this.
00:06:32.279 --> 00:06:34.679
You just had to stop pushing back on it.
00:06:34.919 --> 00:06:40.759
And that's how the behavior system in schools stopped being a system and became a vibe.
00:06:41.799 --> 00:06:45.319
Formal consequences became really hard to find.
00:06:45.560 --> 00:06:53.959
And the behavior referral, the go figure this out somewhere referral, started landing in one place more than anywhere else.
00:06:54.279 --> 00:06:55.319
Your office.
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You and I both know what this looks like.
00:06:59.879 --> 00:07:06.599
You clear space in your schedule to stay available for on-the-fly behavior intervention because you know it's coming.
00:07:06.839 --> 00:07:11.719
You tell people, I'll try to be there to help if nobody explodes.
00:07:12.039 --> 00:07:16.119
You've told yourself this is just what school counselors do now.
00:07:16.359 --> 00:07:23.479
And somewhere in the back of your mind, during all of this, you're thinking about the kids who actually need you.
00:07:23.879 --> 00:07:29.399
The ones who should be on your caseload who are still waiting.
00:07:30.039 --> 00:07:33.639
Student walks out of class for the third time this week, counselor.
00:07:34.119 --> 00:07:39.239
Student is verbally aggressive, refuses to work, and makes threats toward a peer, counselor.
00:07:39.879 --> 00:07:43.879
Teacher has run out of strategies and there's nowhere else to send them.
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You guessed it, the school counselor.
00:07:47.399 --> 00:07:50.599
Not because these types of referrals fit your training.
00:07:50.839 --> 00:07:52.599
You're not a disciplinarian, right?
00:07:52.679 --> 00:07:54.759
And you're not supposed to be punitive.
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It's because your door is open and in a building looking for somewhere to send it, that's enough.
00:08:01.879 --> 00:08:05.239
And if you zoom out, you can actually see this in the numbers.
00:08:05.560 --> 00:08:12.919
Nationally, we're at about 372 students per school counselor, according to ASCA's most recent national data.
00:08:13.159 --> 00:08:16.519
The professional recommendation is, of course, 250 to 1.
00:08:16.759 --> 00:08:18.119
We're not even close.
00:08:18.359 --> 00:08:36.679
And a 2024 replication study found that school counselors are spending nearly 37% of their time on non-counseling duties, which is composed of test coordination, scheduling changes, administrative coverage, and yes, behavioral holds.
00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:38.679
Nearly 37%.
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More than a third of your workday, not school counseling.
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You have been carrying the consequences of everyone else's decisions.
00:08:50.920 --> 00:08:59.879
A system stepped back from its responsibilities, left a vacuum in place, and your office was the closest available door.
00:09:01.160 --> 00:09:03.320
So you've been scrambling.
00:09:03.399 --> 00:09:05.320
And honestly, so did I.
00:09:06.120 --> 00:09:18.040
I can remember reading about behavior management on my own time, asking special education teachers to explain function-based thinking, uh, watching YouTube videos on how to run behavior intervention.
00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:19.639
I did all of those things.
00:09:19.879 --> 00:09:27.160
I was trying to piece together enough knowledge to feel competent in a role that nobody really prepared me for.
00:09:27.480 --> 00:09:33.240
So if you've ever felt behind with regard to behavior, it's not because you missed a training.
00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:37.000
It's because your role was expanded without your consent.
00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:39.879
And I want to be clear about this.
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This scrambling and trying to figure out how to handle behavior is not evidence of a gap in you.
00:09:46.360 --> 00:09:48.600
It's evidence of a gap in the system.
00:09:49.160 --> 00:09:55.800
So if you've ever let yourself think I should have this by now or I should know this by now, stop it.
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In a couple of minutes, I'm going to give you a few quick questions for those gray areas when maybe you get referrals where you genuinely can't tell whether it's capacity or compliance.
00:11:51.149 --> 00:11:57.389
But first, I want to show you a little bit more about why this gap exists because it is so illuminating.
00:11:58.029 --> 00:12:04.429
School counselors are typically trained under K-Crep or a close approximation of it, right?
00:12:04.750 --> 00:12:13.389
Person-centered approaches, developmental theory, systemic thinking, group counseling, crisis intervention, relational frameworks, clinical frameworks.
00:12:13.629 --> 00:12:17.070
That is the foundation of what you were trained to do.
00:12:17.870 --> 00:12:23.230
Behavior analysis is governed by an entirely separate credentialing body.
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It's the behavior analyst certification board.
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It's a separate degree, separate supervised field work, separate examination, and a completely different clinical world.
00:12:35.230 --> 00:12:40.590
These two systems were built for different purposes and they were never designed to overlap.
00:12:40.990 --> 00:12:44.830
K-Crep doesn't even require behavior analysis coursework.
00:12:45.230 --> 00:12:48.750
The BACB doesn't require counseling coursework.
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And the 2024 K-Crep standards confirm this.
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Behavior analysis is not in scope.
00:12:56.029 --> 00:12:58.509
And that's not due to an oversight.
00:12:58.669 --> 00:13:01.149
It was never part of the job.
00:13:01.629 --> 00:13:08.269
And then we can get even more specific with this because it wasn't just one reform movement that caused this problem.
00:13:08.429 --> 00:13:09.870
There were actually two.
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Two national school reform movements that required behavioral expertise from school counselors that came in from different directions at different times.
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And neither one of them brought any training along with them.
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The first was actually PBIS, positive behavior interventions and supports.
00:13:30.029 --> 00:13:34.669
If you've worked in a school in the last 20 years, I know you know PBIS.
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You've probably been asked to sit on a PBIS team.
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Maybe you have to implement it.
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Some of you monitor it and are responsible for it.
00:13:43.230 --> 00:13:52.909
But what most schools never told their school counselors is that PBIS is, at its foundation, an applied behavior analysis framework.
00:13:53.230 --> 00:14:04.190
Researchers Robert Horner and George Sugai documented that PBIS grew from and is infused with the principles and technology of behavior analysis.
00:14:04.750 --> 00:14:13.950
It is ABA at a systems level, the same clinical science that earned someone a BCBA credential.
00:14:14.590 --> 00:14:25.070
This is a training mismatch because school counselors were folded into PBIS teams without their role ever being formally defined.
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Counselor educator Christopher Sink documented this directly in 2016 that the roles and functions of school counselors within PBIS were, quote, not delineated until many years after they were first introduced.
00:14:40.590 --> 00:14:52.110
And there were few evidence-based resources for school counselor educators to draw upon in order to rework their pre-service courses to include MTSS curriculum.
00:14:52.350 --> 00:14:57.950
So, no preparation, no curriculum, just this new expectation.
00:14:58.750 --> 00:15:11.310
A 2024 survey of school-based behavior analysts found that BCBAs, the professionals who were actually trained for this work, were underutilized in general education settings.
00:15:11.549 --> 00:15:16.029
The people with the behavioral training weren't being deployed.
00:15:16.350 --> 00:15:19.389
The people without it were being drafted.
00:15:19.870 --> 00:15:39.389
Then in the mid-2010s, a second movement arrived: trauma-informed practice, different language, different theoretical framework, and a different professional culture that was driving it, but structurally, it ended up in the same outcome.
00:15:39.710 --> 00:15:42.429
Get curious instead of punitive.
00:15:42.830 --> 00:15:45.470
Step back from traditional discipline.
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And really, if we're getting real in practice, send them to the school counselor.
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Behavioral work without behavioral training, landing in the school counselor's office again.
00:15:58.909 --> 00:16:08.509
So these were two national reform movements, both requiring expertise you were never trained to have, and they were both pointing kids to you.
00:16:09.310 --> 00:16:18.669
Sink, the same counselor educator whose 2016 study documented that PBIS preparation gap, described the mismatch this way.
00:16:19.149 --> 00:16:32.590
Imagine a physician who trained as a neurologist, completed the program, passed the boards, and went into practice only to be told, we need you to perform cardiac surgery today.
00:16:32.830 --> 00:16:36.350
You're here, the patient needs help, so figure it out.
00:16:46.590 --> 00:16:47.710
Same with us.
00:16:47.870 --> 00:16:50.190
And here's even one more layer.
00:16:50.509 --> 00:16:55.549
Most school counselors have no required postmaster's clinical supervision, right?
00:16:55.870 --> 00:17:02.429
Whatever supervision that exists is usually administrative, where the principal evaluates our performance, right?
00:17:02.509 --> 00:17:06.430
Not like in the vein of a clinician building competencies.
00:17:06.750 --> 00:17:14.509
The supervision structure, so to speak, that we receive doesn't develop the behavioral expertise that we need.
00:17:14.830 --> 00:17:24.430
And the organizational incentive to change any of that is not there because the current arrangement is working just fine for everybody who is not you.
00:17:25.070 --> 00:17:37.230
So essentially, you have been handed work that requires a credential you don't have in a system that provided no pathway to develop it, with supervision that wasn't designed to support it.
00:17:37.470 --> 00:17:38.509
Cool, right?
00:17:38.830 --> 00:17:41.070
So you didn't fail to learn something.
00:17:41.150 --> 00:17:42.670
You're not behind the power curve.
00:17:42.830 --> 00:17:45.549
It was never supposed to be part of your job.
00:17:45.870 --> 00:17:49.150
And so, because of this, it's costing people.
00:17:49.870 --> 00:18:02.910
Researcher Gerda Bardashi and her team at the University of Iowa, where she leads the Scanlon Center for School Mental Health, found that 20% of school counselors are already in the early stages of burnout.
00:18:03.070 --> 00:18:07.310
And when they looked at what was driving that, the findings were very specific.
00:18:07.870 --> 00:18:10.269
It was not the clinical work.
00:18:10.750 --> 00:18:16.750
It wasn't the students with significant trauma histories or the group sessions or the crisis calls.
00:18:16.910 --> 00:18:21.310
Y'all, all of that work is hard, but it's not what's burning people out.
00:18:21.549 --> 00:18:35.710
It's the non-counseling role stressors, the behavioral referrals that aren't really counseling referrals, the administrative work, the roles that are handed over to you without training or authority or infrastructure.
00:18:36.190 --> 00:18:41.710
Those kinds of role stressors drive burnout more than what our true jobs do.
00:18:41.950 --> 00:18:51.789
That's what the research keeps showing time and time again, which means the part of your job that's wearing you out is not the part of your job that you signed up for.
00:18:52.029 --> 00:18:53.149
And then there's this.
00:18:53.389 --> 00:19:13.229
Bardoshi and her colleague Oom in a 2024 paper found that professional identity, which is your clarity about who you are as a school counselor, what your role is, what it isn't, and what your work actually means in the world, is the single strongest protective factor against burnout that they could identify.
00:19:13.549 --> 00:19:18.750
So not smaller caseloads, not a better building, not even a pay raise, y'all.
00:19:19.069 --> 00:19:21.069
Professional identity.
00:19:21.789 --> 00:19:29.069
So the clearest line between where you are now and a sustainable career is not a policy change that you have to wait for.
00:19:29.309 --> 00:19:41.549
It's knowing very clearly, clinically, and without apology who you are and what your work is, and acting from that, even inside of a building that hasn't caught up yet.
00:19:41.789 --> 00:19:46.429
Your instincts about your role are not rigidity and they're not resistance.
00:19:46.669 --> 00:19:50.509
It's not you not being a team player, as you're often told.
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Your instincts about this are the things that can protect you.
00:19:55.789 --> 00:19:58.669
So let's make those instincts concrete.
00:19:58.829 --> 00:20:01.709
Let's let's draw that line in real time.
00:20:02.750 --> 00:20:09.709
Counseling changes internal capacity, discipline changes external behavior.
00:20:09.949 --> 00:20:18.269
Both can happen at the same time and often they should, but what matters is knowing which part of this really belongs to you.
00:20:18.509 --> 00:20:25.229
And the reason so much behavioral work has landed on your desk is that the distinction was never made.
00:20:25.469 --> 00:20:36.989
So the question you can ask starting tomorrow morning when that next behavior referral finds its way to you is is this a capacity problem or is it a compliance problem?
00:20:37.949 --> 00:20:43.629
With capacity, the student genuinely lacks the internal skill to manage the situation.
00:20:43.869 --> 00:20:48.669
They lack the regulation, the coping, the cognitive flexibility.
00:20:48.829 --> 00:20:51.069
That's all based on clinical stuff.
00:20:51.229 --> 00:20:52.429
That's yours.
00:20:53.469 --> 00:20:57.469
Compliance concerns happen when the student has the skill.
00:20:57.629 --> 00:21:01.629
They know the expectation, but they're choosing not to follow it.
00:21:01.869 --> 00:21:03.789
That's not a counseling deficit.
00:21:03.869 --> 00:21:05.229
That's a structure problem.
00:21:05.469 --> 00:21:08.269
And structure belongs to administration.
00:21:09.069 --> 00:21:11.629
So let's make this even more concrete.
00:21:11.869 --> 00:21:26.349
The student who falls apart every time the work gets hard, who genuinely cannot tolerate frustration and who dysregulates the same way across every classroom, every adult, and every setting, that's capacity.
00:21:27.149 --> 00:21:37.149
The student who knows exactly what's expected, has been able to do it before on a calmer day, and is deciding right now that today is not the day.
00:21:37.469 --> 00:21:39.309
That is compliance.
00:21:39.709 --> 00:21:46.109
Same surface behavior on the outside, but requires a completely different response.
00:21:46.509 --> 00:21:52.189
You have to ask yourself, is this behavior consistent across all settings and all adults?
00:21:52.429 --> 00:21:56.589
Or is it specific to this classroom, this teacher, this time of day?
00:21:57.229 --> 00:21:59.789
Has the student ever demonstrated the skill?
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Can they do it on a good day, in a calm moment when they're with somebody they trust?
00:22:05.069 --> 00:22:08.189
Capacity is usually consistent.
00:22:08.509 --> 00:22:11.869
Compliance is usually contextual.
00:22:12.349 --> 00:22:19.069
And for a really fast shortcut, when you're feeling the pressure, if the student can do it somewhere, it's not capacity.
00:22:19.949 --> 00:22:22.750
And I mean, yeah, some kids do have both.
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Let's be honest.
00:22:24.349 --> 00:22:30.189
Um, they can have real capacity gaps and this willingness to test the limits at the same time.
00:22:30.429 --> 00:22:36.109
And when you're in this gray area, not being sure is not a sign of failure on your part.
00:22:36.349 --> 00:22:41.309
That's exactly where all of your skills and insight and consultation are in their keep.
00:22:41.629 --> 00:22:47.949
You document what you observed, you document what you're uncertain about and who you're handing it off to.
00:22:48.429 --> 00:22:52.269
Not every behavior referral needs a clean answer from you.
00:22:52.349 --> 00:22:54.589
Some of them just need a clear handoff.
00:22:54.829 --> 00:22:57.629
So if it's capacity, lean in.
00:22:57.789 --> 00:23:02.829
If it's compliance, consult, but don't immediately absorb it.
00:23:03.309 --> 00:23:08.429
What this does is give you a way to clearly see what's right in front of you.
00:23:09.709 --> 00:23:11.789
I've got to be real too for a second.
00:23:11.869 --> 00:23:21.789
I'm gonna pause for just a second, be super honest with you and say, I know the types of campuses that many of you work in, and I know that change is not going to happen overnight.
00:23:22.109 --> 00:23:26.829
The behavior intervention flood is probably not gonna change for you this week.
00:23:27.069 --> 00:23:35.309
And you may even be thinking, great, that's a wonderful distinction, but my school is not going to turn itself inside out because I listen to a podcast.
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I'm still gonna have behavior on my desk.
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So now what do I do?
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Well, first we have to start changing the lens, right?
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Just changing our perspective, becoming more aware of the nuance between the two behavior camps so we can start.
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Start making some of those discernments and distinctions in real time.
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The second part of that is inside our mastermind, we built tools for this conundrum.
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