From Underwater Crime Scene Investigator to School Counseling Superstar

Transcript

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Hey there, school counselor, welcome back to the School for School Counselors podcast.

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I'm Steph Johnson, a full-time school counselor just like you, who's tired of the unrealistic expectations of our work and who's ready to see my colleagues working confidently and happily in ethical and sustainable conditions.

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And here at School for School Counselors, we're working toward that end, deliberately and surely, seeking to empower you to the best of our ability.

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In this episode, you are in for a treat From underwater crime scene investigator to school counselor.

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How is that even possible?

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You're going to get to hear all about it from Ginger Bernal, a 17-year veteran of school counseling.

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She's done it all, from pre-K through high school, and she is so knowledgeable and insightful, not only about the essence of our work, but also about systems, data and how we can really position ourselves to get ahead and be a voice of influence on our campus.

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You are not going to want to miss this conversation because I promise you it is going to be a game changer for the way you see your work.

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We started the conversation just like I do most of my podcast interviews.

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I asked Ginger to tell us a little bit about what brought her into the school counseling world.

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What did her journey look like and what kinds of stops did she make along the way?

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Hi, I'm Ginger Burnell.

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I am in my 17th year of education and school counseling.

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My journey to where I am now is a little unorthodox.

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I started out in criminology as my undergrad underwater crime scene investigation and went on to obtain my graduate degree, my master's, in clinical mental health.

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So I went the private practice route and worked for a non-for-profit counseling residential and non-residential group home.

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Basically, we had a shelter from zero to 17.

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And then also we did non-residential individual group and family counseling and I got burned out, was on call a lot, and the schedule of education is what initially triggered me to check it out.

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So I did, and here I am 17 years later.

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So from underwater crime scene investigator to nonprofit and agency work and then on to school counseling.

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I think we can all agree Ginger's had a very unique path within her school counseling career and, having experience from pre-kindergarten all the way through to the college level, I asked Ginger what are some of the experience that really sticks out in her mind.

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Oh, there are tons of stories.

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My true passion is with the littles, k through five.

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But there's unique aspects along the way.

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You know, with older students working at the secondary level you have opportunities to have conversations and really put in the work to preparing that student for the next journey, and that was always so inspiring to me, so I love that piece of high school.

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Actually, I was a career and technical education academic advisor at the state college level, so I got to recruit for CTE workforce programs in the high schools and also help adult learners make their journey through.

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Maybe it was a career change, maybe it was.

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You know, we're doing something for the first time.

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My most special memory of working at the state college level was we actually were partnered with an adult school or GED program and I had a mom of seven.

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She did not complete her high school diploma and so she was able to successfully navigate and obtain her GED and we worked together to get her through the CNA program and she graduated.

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We were all there with her.

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It was fantastic to see her as an adult woman but growing into herself and finding her self-confidence in that.

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She later sent me a message and said I'm sorry if I acted a little strange at the graduation.

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I was like what?

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are you talking?

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about and she said I never have experienced success before, so I was nervous and I didn't know how to handle it.

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So I was nervous and I didn't know how to handle it and to me that was very eye-opening.

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She never had the opportunity to participate in things that we take for granted a high school graduation and things of that nature so it was very eye-opening and humbling.

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Gracious.

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That goes straight to the heart, doesn't it?

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It sounds like an amazing experience and something that Ginger will never forget.

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Before we started our podcast conversation, Ginger and I were just chatting and she mentioned that no day in school counseling is ever the same and that she believes the job is as extraordinary as we plan for it to be.

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I asked her to tell me more about what she meant.

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Well, when I first started in school counseling Lord how mercy I would not want to be.

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Judged for the first couple of years on the job I was a hot mess, and so I have learned throughout the years that, yes, every day is a new adventure and there's going to be 15 different things pop up that you didn't expect as soon as you hit the front door.

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But if you plan and set up your program before you start, you put that thoughtfulness into it to plan out your year or even start smaller, plan out your semester.

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You know hold yourself more accountable.

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You accomplish more of your goals versus flying by the seat of your pants.

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You know you get things done and with that comes that administrator and school counselor partnership that is built into planning and being strategic with your annual calendar.

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I love this.

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I think so often we see our colleagues feeling completely out of control, like they're careening off course somehow, or maybe that they're on a road they were never supposed to be on, and I think we see a lot of people in our field that just kind of throw up their hands and say, well, I mean, this is just the way it is.

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I better figure out how to make it work.

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But what I heard Ginger say was you can put a little bit more intentionality behind that.

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If we can all take some time for reflection and really think about what the essential components of our school counseling program are going to be, it's going to make the road a little easier to travel.

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Yes, ma'am, you know the key to it is the administrator buy-in.

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If you propose your plan, you model your program.

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Let's say, for example, let's work smarter, not harder.

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Let's align our program goals to, maybe, the school improvement plan.

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There's always a way that the school counseling program can support the school for better success.

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You know I'm not familiar with states other than Florida, so I can only speak to my experience in Florida with the school grade.

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I know that is a huge thing for administrators.

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If you start talking about how I'm going to help promote our school grade, the school culture, you know blah, blah, blah.

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Whatever your goals are, they eat that up.

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And that is really your key because once you have your admin buy in, they let you rock and roll, and I'm not saying that you'll get every goal accomplished.

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You know I was that person that felt overwhelmed and out of control in the beginning of my career and felt like, well, I guess this is just how it is, but it doesn't have to be that way.

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What I heard Ginger say is that when you're picking a zone of focus, picking a goal for your program and really trying to figure out how to develop that relationship and buy in with your administrator, it's advantageous to focus on some of the more tangible aspects of our work versus some of the feel good stuff that we tend to focus on when we're talking.

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We like to talk about things like better peer relationships and social skills and national models that our administrators probably aren't even familiar with.

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Instead, we need to find something that shows the administrator I'm going to make you look good.

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Find something that shows the administrator I'm going to make you look good or I'm going to help the school reach the goal that we've set.

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That's how I'm going to help.

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I love how Ginger sees this.

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So a perfect example of that is when I came to my current district that I'm in now.

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So the 2021 school year was the very first year that this district even employed or offered the role of school counselor at the elementary level.

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I was shocked and blown away.

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I was like, excuse me what?

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But so you think about it.

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If you were an administrator and you've only had experience at the elementary level in this county, and that was it you have never worked with a school counselor, so you don't even have a clue about what they do, and it's not their job to know what our job is.

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It's our job to educate adults and whether it be parents, community members, administrators, teachers what our job is.

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And so really talking about a barrier having to overcome and educate administrators as to what it is that the role is supposed to be, which was actually really phenomenal because there were no bad habits to break, because if you don't set your schedule, someone else will.

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At this point I mentioned that we do have some colleagues out there in the world who are trying to undo some of those bad habits Ginger mentioned and who are trying to state a case for an ASCA-aligned program but are hitting some brick walls.

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They're getting a lot of resistance.

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Maybe it's getting a little contentious.

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I asked Ginger what's some advice that you would give to folks in that situation?

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How do they make inroads to be able to start moving in the direction they know they need to be moving toward?

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I would say to anyone, new counselor or seasoned counselor, my advice would be the same Be realistic, start small, pick one or two things that you want to accomplish that year and work with your administrator as to what are going to be the non-negotiables.

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Here's where you want to be, here's where they want you to be.

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You got to find your meat in the middle and every year, add something new.

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You know, I feel for administrators that is a very difficult role, especially currently.

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Right now, they are under so much pressure.

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So, just like a student, we don't want to overload them with too much information.

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So give them bite-sized little nuggets that they can understand.

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Say, okay, by doing this, here's where my program is going to help you, as an administrator, achieve XYZ.

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So maybe, for example, maybe attendance is a huge problem.

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Well, students can't learn if they're not in school.

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Okay, well, we as school counselors can't help with.

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You know life skills if they're not in school either.

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So it's a win if we have kids in school.

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So you have to find a common ground.

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All right, stop right there and take note of what Ginger just told you, because when she said it, it really caused me to pause and reframe some things in my mind.

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She said that really, it's an obligation for us to teach our administrators about our role because there's no other way for them to understand it, and that they probably shouldn't have to study up on what your job is when they're busy trying to keep their own head above water.

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Teaching your administrator about your role takes time.

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Rome wasn't built in a day, and this process is going to take a little bit of time.

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Give yourself grace.

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I mean this job's hard enough.

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Being in education whether you're a teacher or an administrator, any kind of role it's difficult.

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I always say that, beyond being a parent, being in education is the most challenging and most rewarding job you will ever have.

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I love this perspective.

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At this point in the conversation I mentioned to Ginger that it's a pet peeve of mine when I hear folks talk about wanting to advocate for their programs.

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We hear a lot of folks just talk about the idea of give them the printout of what's appropriate for your job and what's not.

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Just give that to them because you need to tell them what you should and should not be doing, and every time I see that it crawls all over me I think it's a terrible idea, and Ginger agrees with me.

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I can tell you right where that piece of paper is going right in the trash, can.

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Isn't that the truth?

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No one wants to have to sit and assimilate all the information on that page, and I think the reason we ended up talking about this is because the conversation sort of leaned toward the idea that we have to teach people about our jobs in bite-sized pieces, just like in a high school history class.

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We couldn't hand students a list of all of the major historical events they needed to know by the end of the semester and say good luck, hope you know it.

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They'd laugh at us and they'd leave and probably file some kind of complaint.

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Right.

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But in the school counseling world we still have people saying that that is the path, and then they wonder why it doesn't work, and it makes me so sad why it doesn't work.

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And it makes me so sad and you know it gets overused a lot.

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But it is true.

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You have to establish just like you do with your kiddos, no matter what level you're at.

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Adults are no different.

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You have to form that relationship with them, model it for them.

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So invite them, say come on in, come to a classroom lesson, let me show you.

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You know, make them feel valued in that process.

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People want to feel like they matter.

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It made me so happy to hear Ginger say that, because that's exactly what we talk about here in our School for School Counselors world.

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We call it advocating from the inside out, and I was so glad to hear her talk about it as well, because I think we need more people discussing these kinds of approaches.

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At this point we shifted gears a little bit and I asked Ginger about something really cool.

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She had just finished presenting at her state level school counseling conference about systems and about using data in school counseling, so I asked her to give me an overview of what she talked about.

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So my presentation was called SIPs, not to be confused with your school improvement plan, but systems implemented for professional sanity.

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So we want to talk about how to manage all this craziness with programming and support for the day to day grind of school.

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So I had the opportunity to be a speaker at the state school counselor convention back in October about how to set up systems and procedures, mainly electronically we live in a digital age but also how to utilize technology to work for you, to buy back and get back some of your time throughout the year.

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So a lot of automation, a lot of data, looking at your data systems in the beginning.

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Like we talked about taking some intentionality, setting things up in the beginning so that things start off on a smooth foot.

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Sounds very, very cool.

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I wanted Ginger to give us a glimpse into what she's talking about regarding things like automation and processes.

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I was trying to imagine what that meant, and pretty sure you are too.

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So listen to Ginger explain all of this to us right now.

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Yeah.

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So, for example, gone are the days of trying to track down, going back and forth with the teacher on trying to schedule when you can go into their classroom to teach a lesson.

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So, for example, our district here uses Microsoft products.

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So Microsoft has a really nice package where you can use your bookets.

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So it's very similar to other apps, like you know, google Calendar or things like that.

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So I send out a link to my teachers via our weekly newsletter for faculty and the link is in there and all they have to do is click on the link and they apply themselves to my calendar for when it's convenient for them it automatically adds to their calendar.

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As to my calendar they accept.

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Also, I have a just a regular standing booking time If you need to have a just a quick, brief 15 minute meeting with me.

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That is public.

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So I put that on my email signature.

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They can sign up for whatever they need to talk about parents, whatever.

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But the teacher link for classroom lessons is private, so it is sent to the specific individuals by grade level.

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So I have them organized by grade level.

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So when it comes up on my calendar I can see okay, it's this grade level and I know what to teach.

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So another example is automating systems for mass ad log records.

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Documentation in our field is huge.

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Like people say, all the time you didn't write it down didn't happen.

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So we spend a lot of time dedicated to that documentation.

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You know and you're running around and you've got people calling you on the radio or you've got kids in crisis and at the end of the day you're like who did I see?

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So putting systems into place for example, being able to go into your student information system and, as long as it's the same type of service, put in OneNote and have it apply to all of those students Learning your systems and what features you have on your district systems is really key.

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The settings are key.

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Your district systems is really key.

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The settings are key.

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I'm a nerd when it comes to technology and data.

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I could talk about that all day, but really the biggest points are I had some actually was quite surprised.

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I thought that I would have more newbies in the group when in reality, when I did a survey, it was middle of the career, towards end of the career individuals in the room and they were so excited to learn about how to gain their time back.

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Yes, so it was really eye opening for me and I know we were having a dialogue and they were saying well, I don't know a whole lot about technology or I don't really know how to.

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I said that's okay.

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Just like you do with school counseling, you pick one goal, one or two things that you want to learn how to master and you master that.

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Don't try to learn all of it in one time because you're going to get overwhelmed and you will quit or it won't be successful.

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So, for example, something as simple as color coding your groups so you look at your data to formulate your small group counseling based off of whatever goal you're trying to achieve with that population and something as simple as opening up an Excel document.

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You're going to color code the students by grade level with their student ID numbers and the topic that you're going to be covering with them student ID numbers and the topic that you're going to be covering with them.

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Do it in a rotation so that way, each time you rotate in and out a new group of students, you already have those lessons covered.

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You're not having to run around and scramble to find what you're going to teach on that week.

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It's already there.

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So, depending on grade level, you're going to have different lessons, but I always tell people too, your first and your last lesson is always going to be the same, no matter what grade level you're teaching.

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Obviously the verbiage and stuff will change, but you're always going to go in setting those expectations, the group norms, things of that nature, your pre assessments and then the end you're going to do the follow-up, the summaries and the post-assessment.

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So formulating all of those things ahead of time are simple things that you can do.

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Even I don't know about where you are, but here we have some of our forms, like our suicide.

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Rating scales are not digital, so they're on paper.

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Go ahead, you know, spend your pre-planning week.

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Go ahead and making up a few different master packets of forms you know that you're going to use on a regular basis, so you're not scrambling around.

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Those little nuggets really will help you gain back your time during the year, that you can spend more time doing what you love, and that's being in front of kids.

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I love thinking about getting all those little pesky things out of the way, all the stuff that jumps up and bites us, and really trying to be aware of those, really mindful of them and, when they pop up, figuring out a way to just eliminate them before they happen.

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We have something in our School for School Counselors world called the Jump File that we talk a lot about, especially in the summer, in the beginning of the school year, which is a process of pre-creating documents and files that you'll need at your fingertips all the time, just making sure you have them ready to go so that you're not scrambling and flustered and trying to pull something up and print it out in the heat of the moment.

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That's one of the worst feelings in the world, and so I was so glad that Ginger and I were both on the same page about that, and I loved what she said about lessons, that the structure is going to be much the same every time that you walk in to work with students, and I really want you to take note of that, because often we have school counselors that are thinking about going in and conducting lessons and they get super overwhelmed or they feel stuck thinking.

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I have a whole 30 minutes or 45 minutes to fill.

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All this time has to be filled with something and I don't know what to do.

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But they don't realize that if they have the routines and procedures in place, that's going to take care of a fair amount of the time that needs to be handled.

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And on the opposite end of that spectrum, I may only get 15 minutes with kindergartners.

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I got to be flowing and going, you know, because 15 minutes goes by just like that and you know you want to accomplish your goal or task during that time with them.

00:25:56.301 --> 00:26:01.236
So I even have it posted in my space all of the six weeks.

00:26:01.236 --> 00:26:02.920
So I do six week rotation.

00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:10.230
So that's why I'm referencing that, so the kids know you know it's not a secret this is what we're going to do during our time together.

00:26:10.230 --> 00:26:13.316
So I also love Excel.

00:26:13.316 --> 00:26:22.095
So I have a spreadsheet of all of the faculty members and I keep track of cause.

00:26:22.635 --> 00:26:38.755
I'll confess, if we're doing confessions, I have walked into a classroom and conducted a lesson and the kids say Ms Brittany, we've already done this, because you just if you don't write it down, you forget.

00:26:38.755 --> 00:26:50.541
So I have a spreadsheet of what standard that I have taught that group of kids on what day and time, but I plan it out for each month.

00:26:50.541 --> 00:26:57.644
I also have a spreadsheet that talks about the standards that our state requires us to talk about.

00:26:57.644 --> 00:27:04.105
We have a new set of standards going into place for 24-25, the resiliency standards.

00:27:04.105 --> 00:27:08.218
So you want to make sure that you're in alignment with that as well.

00:27:08.218 --> 00:27:11.589
So you can't keep all this stuff in your memory bank.

00:27:11.589 --> 00:27:13.656
You have to, or at least I can.

00:27:13.656 --> 00:27:16.125
I don't know, so I always write it down.

00:27:16.125 --> 00:27:18.553
So I have a spreadsheet for small group.

00:27:18.553 --> 00:27:22.803
I have a spreadsheet for pushing into the classroom for tier one instruction.

00:27:22.803 --> 00:27:26.875
Spreadsheet for pushing into the classroom for tier one instruction.

00:27:26.894 --> 00:27:27.978
I also have one for tier three instruction as well.

00:27:27.978 --> 00:27:30.403
Y'all, ginger is like the spreadsheet queen.

00:27:30.403 --> 00:27:31.527
This is awesome.

00:27:31.527 --> 00:27:43.865
The other thing I really want to highlight about what Ginger is saying and I'm kind of harping on the lesson thing a little bit but with intentionality and with having things planned.

00:27:43.865 --> 00:27:53.013
And she mentioned pre and post assessments, which is something that a lot of school counselors either forget to do or feel intimidated by.

00:27:53.013 --> 00:28:03.782
They often go by the wayside, and that's unfortunate because it's a great way to illustrate what's happening in your program and the kinds of gains that you're achieving.

00:28:03.782 --> 00:28:09.099
That may not be super evident in a campus improvement plan or something like that.

00:28:09.099 --> 00:28:16.800
Being able to show what you're making happen and the residual effects of that can be so powerful.

00:28:16.800 --> 00:28:23.417
I asked Ginger if she had any hacks or tips for pre and post data.

00:28:24.380 --> 00:28:25.821
Don't reinvent the wheel.

00:28:25.821 --> 00:28:28.971
People, for example, do the Likert scale.

00:28:28.971 --> 00:28:30.816
I have four questions.

00:28:30.816 --> 00:28:34.723
They're very similar questions before and after.

00:28:34.723 --> 00:28:39.578
So with older students they can fill it out themselves.

00:28:39.578 --> 00:28:45.199
For the younger population it may be something as simple as you explaining it.

00:28:45.199 --> 00:28:47.153
Don't make it difficult.

00:28:47.153 --> 00:28:48.999
My philosophy keep it simple.

00:28:48.999 --> 00:28:50.301
Work smarter, not harder.

00:28:50.301 --> 00:29:10.338
So on my same spreadsheet that I have with my lesson topics, I have a pre-column and a post-column and I'm able to calculate my formulas so that I can go to my administrators and my faculty and community members to say, hey, what does this lady do all day?

00:29:10.338 --> 00:29:15.353
You know what impact is she having on our kiddos, our students?

00:29:15.353 --> 00:29:20.499
And really that to me, is a necessity of the job.

00:29:20.499 --> 00:29:27.186
How can I reflect on the work that I'm doing if I don't have data?

00:29:27.186 --> 00:29:30.578
You know educators love them some data.

00:29:30.578 --> 00:29:37.083
So having that data to support what you're doing is really key and critical.

00:29:37.869 --> 00:30:15.777
At this point in the conversation, ginger and I had really started to geek out about lessons and correlating data and all the ways to capture it and utilize it, and I mentioned that, as we're running pre and post lesson data which everyone should be doing right because we need to know if our lessons are effective or not we also need to have some systems in place to provide some extended post data so that we can show effects not only 10 minutes after the lesson was over or a week after the lesson was over, but what's going on 6 to 12 weeks after that?

00:30:15.777 --> 00:30:19.644
Are we still seeing some of the changes on the campus?

00:30:19.644 --> 00:30:30.942
I think if this became common practice, it would be absolutely fascinating, and once Ginger heard that, she decided to go one step further.

00:30:32.451 --> 00:30:45.143
I would push it beyond that, because I can go back and look at when a kid was in kindergarten and track them on how they're doing throughout their academic career.

00:30:45.143 --> 00:30:51.809
For students that are not transient, it's almost like you become a family and you're with them for so many years.

00:30:51.809 --> 00:30:54.718
So you want to be able to have data to support.

00:30:54.718 --> 00:31:04.740
You know, maybe one year they're making huge gains and maybe one year you're seeing a downtrend and you have to ask yourself why is that happening?

00:31:04.740 --> 00:31:08.696
Do we need a certain type of skill built in?

00:31:08.696 --> 00:31:12.104
You can also do that with different subgroups.

00:31:12.104 --> 00:31:14.777
You could also do that with different grade levels.

00:31:14.777 --> 00:31:30.194
We know through the adventure of COVID that we have data to support skill deficits so we can track those cohort of students and what areas they need.

00:31:30.194 --> 00:31:32.842
To me, I keep a running history.

00:31:34.569 --> 00:31:36.813
So super interesting.

00:31:36.813 --> 00:31:57.160
I think Ginger and I could have talked for weeks and months about data and systems and all that kind of stuff, but as we wrapped up, I asked Ginger if she had any parting words of wisdom or encouragement for school counselors who may be struggling right now, because not every day is a great day.

00:31:57.160 --> 00:32:03.759
So what advice does she have for us when the work feels really, really difficult?

00:32:04.621 --> 00:32:08.875
Well, I would just say give yourself some grace, you're going to be okay.

00:32:08.875 --> 00:32:14.605
Baby steps, no different than we tell our own students.

00:32:14.605 --> 00:32:19.213
Choose one thing to focus on so that you don't go overwhelmed and you can achieve your goals.

00:32:19.213 --> 00:32:21.537
Don't go overwhelmed and you can achieve your goals.

00:32:21.537 --> 00:32:23.659
Work smarter, not harder.

00:32:23.659 --> 00:32:29.806
Think about ways that you can accomplish multiple things in one fell swoop.

00:32:29.806 --> 00:32:33.152
Don't overcomplicate it.

00:32:33.152 --> 00:32:47.934
I think all too often we get excited and we may sit in on something or learn something new and want to go in and, you know, do the shotgun approach and that won't help you be successful.

00:32:47.934 --> 00:32:57.094
Really being patient and setting one or two goals to work on and really being intentional is the key to success.

00:32:58.095 --> 00:33:28.159
Being patient, setting one to two goals to work on, and being intentional with data, with systems and with your outlook, even when you're working on things that nobody thinks is possible meeting ASCA benchmarks, implementing new procedures into your school counseling program or even something like transitioning from underwater crime scene investigation to school counseling.

00:33:28.159 --> 00:33:44.755
These kinds of perspectives are going to serve you well as you work through your school counseling career, and I'm so grateful to Ginger, not only for her time but for her insights and wisdom in talking with me on this podcast, but for her insights and wisdom in talking with me on this podcast.

00:33:44.755 --> 00:33:45.236
All right, y'all.

00:33:45.236 --> 00:33:46.375
I'm inspired.

00:33:46.375 --> 00:33:49.178
I'm ready to start a new week on campus.

00:33:49.178 --> 00:33:58.884
I'm ready to go forth, serve students with patience in my heart, intentionality in my school counseling game.

00:33:58.884 --> 00:34:01.967
I'm ready to get down to business, and I hope you are too.

00:34:04.890 --> 00:34:13.831
Hey, if you've enjoyed this podcast episode, would you just pop right back in your podcast player and hit like or subscribe, as well as leave us a review.

00:34:13.831 --> 00:34:25.411
You have no idea how valuable that is, not only to us in getting the podcast out into the world, but in helping other school counselors discover what we're offering.

00:34:25.411 --> 00:34:42.523
We work really hard every week to really inspire you, motivate you and give you some new perspectives in your work, and so I hope you're picking up what we're laying down, and if you would be so kind as to help your colleagues discover the podcast, we would be so, so grateful.

00:34:42.523 --> 00:34:48.817
All right, I'll be back soon with another episode of the School for School Counselors podcast.

00:34:48.817 --> 00:34:58.635
In the meantime, I hope you have the best week coming up, stay patient, stay intentional, and I'll talk with you again soon.

00:34:58.635 --> 00:34:59.856
Take care.

From Underwater Crime Scene Investigator to School Counseling Superstar

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