Oct. 13, 2025

Defiance vs. Dysregulation: The Split-Second Call That Changes Everything

The radio call comes in. A student’s refusing to move, and suddenly, everyone’s looking at you to fix it. Here’s what nobody ever told us in grad school: defiance and dysregulation can look the same from the outside, but they require completely different responses. This episode gives you a clear, evidence-based way to figure out the difference, match the right tool to the right circumstance, and keep your cool when the pressure’s on. Join for the masterclass Oct 19: schoolforschoolcounselors...

The radio call comes in. A student’s refusing to move, and suddenly, everyone’s looking at you to fix it.

Here’s what nobody ever told us in grad school: defiance and dysregulation can look the same from the outside, but they require completely different responses.

This episode gives you a clear, evidence-based way to figure out the difference, match the right tool to the right circumstance, and keep your cool when the pressure’s on.

Join for the masterclass Oct 19: schoolforschoolcounselors.com/mastermind

References

Corrigan, F. M., Fisher, J. J., & Nutt, D. J. (2011). Autonomic dysregulation and the window of tolerance model of the effects of complex emotional trauma. Journal of Psychopharmacology, 25(1), 17-25.

Lebowitz, E. R., Panza, K. E., & Bloch, M. H. (2016). Family accommodation in obsessive-compulsive and anxiety disorders: A five-year update. Expert Review of Neurotherapeutics, 16(1), 45-53.

Shahan, T. A. (2022). Explaining extinction and relapse. Journal of the Experimental Analysis of Behavior, 117(3), 360-375.

Siegel, D. J. (2012). The developing mind: How relationships and the brain interact to shape who we are (2nd ed.). Guilford Press.

**********************************

All names, stories, and case studies in this episode are fictionalized composites drawn from real-world circumstances. Any resemblance to actual students, families, or school personnel is coincidental. Details have been altered to protect privacy.

00:12 - The Call From The Cafeteria

00:24 - Stakes Of The First Move

01:16 - Walking Into The Room

02:47 - Why Getting It Wrong Hurts Kids

05:32 - Marcus: When Anxiety Is Avoidance

08:27 - A Field Framework: Reading Cues

11:59 - Jordan: True Shutdown And Co‑Regulation

14:28 - Mia: Boundaries That Build Tolerance

16:17 - Confirmation Questions That Clarify

20:27 - Four Costly Mistakes Counselors Make

25:58 - Applying The Read In Real Time

27:29 - Gray Zones, Scripts, And Campus Buy‑In

28:29 - Masterclass Invite And Next Steps

29:50 - Tomorrow’s Plan And Closing

WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.439
Your walkie goes off.

00:00:01.679 --> 00:00:03.439
Can you come to the cafeteria?

00:00:03.600 --> 00:00:05.599
He's refusing to go to class.

00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:09.599
Yeah, that's all the information you get.

00:00:11.679 --> 00:00:14.160
Hey school counselor, welcome back.

00:00:14.320 --> 00:00:19.120
In this episode, we're tackling the split-second decision that changes everything.

00:00:19.359 --> 00:00:22.320
Is it defiance or dysregulation?

00:00:22.559 --> 00:00:24.000
They look identical.

00:00:24.239 --> 00:00:28.160
Same refusal, same tone, same slammed doors.

00:00:28.399 --> 00:00:31.600
They need completely opposite responses.

00:00:31.920 --> 00:00:36.640
Get it wrong, and you risk re-traumatizing a student who's already struggling.

00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:40.960
Get it right, and you become the advocate they so desperately need.

00:00:41.200 --> 00:00:44.079
And here's the part nobody wants to say out loud.

00:00:44.320 --> 00:00:46.159
We've been getting this wrong.

00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:47.359
A lot.

00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:54.159
So if you're ready for some straight talk, my friend, a little clarity and maybe a touch of rebellion.

00:00:54.880 --> 00:00:56.799
You are in the right place.

00:00:57.119 --> 00:01:02.159
I'm Steph Johnson, and this is the School for School Counselors podcast.

00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:05.840
So that radio call just came through.

00:01:05.920 --> 00:01:08.959
You're halfway through an email, but that doesn't matter now.

00:01:09.200 --> 00:01:12.480
You grab your keys and you start walking down the hallway.

00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:15.840
Your heart rate picks up with every step.

00:01:16.079 --> 00:01:19.280
And your mind's already running through the possibilities.

00:01:19.519 --> 00:01:20.560
Is he angry?

00:01:20.799 --> 00:01:21.359
Scared?

00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:23.439
Is he playing to an audience?

00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:27.359
The hallway smells like industrial cleaner and chicken nuggets.

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You know that smell.

00:01:28.879 --> 00:01:34.640
You push through the cafeteria doors, and everyone turns to look at you.

00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:39.280
The teacher's pacing near the vending machines, her arms crossed.

00:01:39.439 --> 00:01:43.280
The students at a corner table staring at the floor, hood up.

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The lunch aids have cleared the area, but there are still eyes everywhere.

00:01:48.560 --> 00:01:51.040
Other students pretending not to watch.

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A parent volunteer frozen near the door, probably texting someone about the situation.

00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:06.719
The teacher spots you and they sigh, half out of relief, half out of frustration, and they walk over with their voice low but urgent.

00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:09.840
He just shut down, won't talk, won't move.

00:02:09.919 --> 00:02:11.680
I tried everything.

00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:16.319
And now every eye in that cafeteria is on you.

00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:18.319
You're the school counselor.

00:02:18.719 --> 00:02:24.319
And the unspoken expectation hangs in the air like humidity before a storm.

00:02:24.639 --> 00:02:25.919
Fix it.

00:02:26.479 --> 00:02:30.879
You've got maybe 10 seconds to decide your first move.

00:02:31.199 --> 00:02:34.400
Do you approach him directly or give him space?

00:02:34.639 --> 00:02:36.560
Soft voice or firm tone.

00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:38.800
Ask questions or make statements.

00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:46.560
Every choice sends a message to him, to the teacher watching, and to the students pretending not to listen.

00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:51.120
And here's the thing: you could get this completely wrong.

00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:57.280
Come in too soft and you might reinforce avoidance when he actually needs to learn accountability.

00:02:57.520 --> 00:03:03.199
Come in too firm and you might punish a nervous system that's already in full fight or flight mode.

00:03:03.439 --> 00:03:08.240
You'll push him further into shutdown, or worse, into an explosion.

00:03:08.800 --> 00:03:10.639
So what do you do?

00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:13.840
Here's what nobody told us in grad school.

00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:23.759
They taught us ASCA standards, they taught us how to write SMART goals, they taught us ethics and statistics and crisis intervention theory.

00:03:24.319 --> 00:03:31.840
But nobody taught us how to walk into a cafeteria full of 200 people and decode a standoff in 10 seconds.

00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:43.520
Nobody prepared us for the fact that our response in this moment could either help the student trust adults again or teach him that no one really understands what's happening inside him.

00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:54.319
So we learn through trial and error, through hallway whispers, through that one workshop we went to three years ago, or through sheer instinct.

00:03:54.639 --> 00:03:57.680
And most of the time, we do okay.

00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:01.039
But okay isn't enough anymore.

00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:08.319
Because the students who land in these moments are the ones who've already been misread over and over.

00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:14.719
They're the ones who've been punished for panic attacks and coddled when they needed boundaries.

00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:22.480
And when we get it wrong, when we misread the state they're in, we don't just make a professional misstep.

00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:24.399
We hurt kids.

00:04:25.279 --> 00:04:31.279
When you treat dysregulation like defiance, you add consequences to crisis.

00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:38.639
You essentially tell a child in survival mode that their nervous system's distress signals are a behavioral choice.

00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:44.160
You teach them that when they're overwhelmed, adults respond with pressure instead of safety.

00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:52.399
So next time they won't come to you, they'll run, or worse, they'll shut down so completely that nobody can reach them at all.

00:04:52.720 --> 00:04:55.199
That's the suspension pipeline.

00:04:55.360 --> 00:04:58.160
And that's how we lose kids in schools.

00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:06.079
But when you treat defiance like dysregulation, you remove the very boundaries that teach responsibility.

00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:10.480
You teach that avoidance works and accountability doesn't apply.

00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:14.720
You rob that student of the chance to learn frustration tolerance.

00:05:14.879 --> 00:05:19.600
And the reality that sometimes we do hard things even when we don't want to.

00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:21.600
Let me give you an example.

00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:28.240
Marcus, eighth grader, charming kid, funny and incredibly perceptive.

00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:32.879
During advisory, he'd wait until the teacher started a lesson, and then you'd see it.

00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:35.759
His whole demeanor would shift.

00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:41.199
He'd start fidgeting, looking down, and then his hand would go up.

00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:45.439
Miss Rodriguez, I'm feeling really anxious today.

00:05:45.759 --> 00:05:47.920
Can I go to the counseling office?

00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:50.240
And his voice would shake a little.

00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:53.040
He'd look down, fidgeting with his pencil.

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All the classic anxiety signals.

00:05:56.480 --> 00:05:58.560
At first his counselor honored that.

00:05:58.720 --> 00:05:59.680
Of course she did.

00:05:59.920 --> 00:06:02.399
It takes courage to name those feelings, right?

00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:05.279
And that's what we want students to do.

00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:08.160
But then she started noticing something.

00:06:08.480 --> 00:06:11.680
He only felt anxious during advisory.

00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:18.480
Never during PE, never during lunch, never during the periods where he got to choose a seat or work with friends.

00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:21.920
And when he got to the counseling office, he wasn't dysregulated.

00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:23.519
He was chatting, joking.

00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:26.319
Hey Miss Chen, can I help you organize the fidget bin?

00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:30.399
Suddenly very interested in color-coding the stress balls by size.

00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:35.680
No shaky voice, no distress, just fine.

00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:43.600
Meanwhile, his advisory teacher is watching 28 other kids and wondering why Marcus gets to leave whenever he wants.

00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:47.439
And the message to the entire class is crystal clear.

00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:52.480
Say the magic words, show the right signals, and you're out.

00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:56.959
Marcus didn't need a break from anxiety.

00:06:57.199 --> 00:07:04.879
Marcus needed an adult who could see through the performance and say, I hear you, and I also know that you can handle this.

00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:11.600
He needed to learn that discomfort isn't danger, that anxiety doesn't always mean exit.

00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:14.560
So his counselor tried something different.

00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:19.519
Next time Marcus asked to leave, she said, I hear you're anxious.

00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:22.399
And I also know you can handle this.

00:07:22.639 --> 00:07:25.199
Let's try five more minutes and then check in.

00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:26.560
And you know what?

00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:27.839
He stayed.

00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:31.759
And after a few weeks of this, the requests stopped.

00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:40.959
By treating his strategic avoidance like dysregulation initially, we'd been denying him the growth opportunity he actually needed.

00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:44.160
And here's what nobody talks about.

00:07:44.399 --> 00:07:52.959
Research shows that students who are repeatedly removed from challenging situations actually become more anxious, not less.

00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:55.600
Their window of tolerance shrinks.

00:07:55.839 --> 00:08:02.879
We think we're giving them a break, but we're actually teaching their brain that the world is even more dangerous than they thought.

00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:08.079
Those kinds of errors hurt the very kids we're trying to protect.

00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:11.600
So, how do you tell the difference?

00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:14.079
Let's go back to that cafeteria.

00:08:14.319 --> 00:08:23.199
You're standing there 10 feet away, everyone's watching, and here's what you do: you start gathering data.

00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:29.680
And I'm gonna show you exactly how I do this, like you're inside my head as I'm assessing.

00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:31.839
First, I look at his breathing.

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It's rapid, shallow.

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His chest is moving fast.

00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:41.039
Okay, that's physiological sign number one, but I don't lock in my read just yet.

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I need more data.

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I move a little closer.

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His hands are trembling slightly where they're gripping his knees.

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That's physiological sign number two.

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Now I'm leaning toward dysregulation, but here's what would change my mind.

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I glance around.

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Are there any peers nearby?

00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:00.080
Is there an audience?

00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:05.039
No, the lunch aids clear the area, but his behavior hasn't changed.

00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:08.159
He's still in it, even though no one's watching.

00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:11.279
If this were defiance, he'd have adjusted it by now.

00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:15.360
The performance needs an audience, so this isn't that.

00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:18.720
I catch a glimpse of his face under the hood.

00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:20.720
His eyes aren't defiant.

00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:23.440
They're sort of glassy, unfocused.

00:09:23.759 --> 00:09:27.039
The teacher said he just shut down, won't talk.

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So I try.

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I keep my voice gentle.

00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:32.000
Hey, what's going on?

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He whispers back, barely audible.

00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:36.559
I don't know.

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And I hear the confusion in his voice.

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That's it.

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That's the tell.

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That's not I don't want to tell you.

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That's I genuinely cannot access language right now.

00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:53.679
This is dysregulation.

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Let me break down what I just did because this is the framework.

00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:03.120
There are two categories of cues.

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And you're not looking for all of them.

00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:08.399
You're looking for the two or three that never lie.

00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:12.639
If it's dysregulation, here's what matters most.

00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:16.879
One, the physiological signs you can see.

00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:21.279
Rapid breathing, flushed face, shaking, sweating.

00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:23.360
The body is in fight or flight.

00:10:23.519 --> 00:10:26.559
You can see the nervous system activation.

00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:29.600
And two, language goes offline.

00:10:29.919 --> 00:10:32.480
You ask them a question and they can't answer.

00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:35.120
Not won't, can't.

00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:39.279
They might whisper, I don't know, with genuine confusion.

00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:41.600
They might repeat what you say.

00:10:41.919 --> 00:10:44.080
Or they might go completely silent.

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Not defiant silence, but empty silence.

00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:50.320
And here's the one that seals it.

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The behavior continues even when there's no audience and no reward.

00:10:56.320 --> 00:11:02.960
You ignore them, walk away, remove all attention, and the reaction doesn't change.

00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:07.120
They're not performing, they're surviving.

00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:13.679
Now, on the other hand, defiance has two tells that give it away every time.

00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:17.600
One, the behavior escalates when you engage.

00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:23.200
You start talking, redirecting, setting a boundary, and the behavior intensifies.

00:11:23.440 --> 00:11:25.759
Your attention is fuel.

00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:30.320
And two, it stops abruptly when they get what they want.

00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:34.720
You say, fine, you can take a break, and suddenly they're fine.

00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:40.240
If the crisis ends when they get what they want, it wasn't a crisis.

00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:45.279
Now let me show you what that looks like in real situations.

00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:49.519
I will never forget a fourth grader that I worked with.

00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:50.799
I'll call him Jordan.

00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:54.320
The teacher would ask him to start the work and he'd refuse.

00:11:54.480 --> 00:12:00.879
Arms crossed, head down, wouldn't respond to questions, and it looked like classic defiance.

00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:05.279
Deliberate non-compliance, testing limits.

00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:09.360
But when I got closer, I noticed something.

00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:13.600
His eyes weren't making contact because he was challenging authority.

00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:15.200
They'd gone classy.

00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:18.399
Like he was looking through me and not at me.

00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:22.320
And he'd started this low humming sound under his breath.

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I don't even think he was conscious of it.

00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:26.639
It was just this steady hum.

00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:30.960
So I asked him, Jordan, what's going on?

00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:34.000
And he whispered, What's going on?

00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:35.840
Echolalia.

00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:39.039
He was repeating my words back to me.

00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:40.799
Check the signals.

00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:42.559
Physiological signs?

00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:43.200
Yes.

00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:45.679
Glassy eyes, self-soothing hum.

00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:47.360
Language offline?

00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:48.879
Absolutely.

00:12:49.039 --> 00:12:51.279
He couldn't even access his own words.

00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:53.360
That wasn't defiance.

00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:54.960
That was a shutdown.

00:12:55.279 --> 00:13:01.440
His brain had left the conversation, and the more I pushed, the further away he went.

00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:03.519
So I stopped pushing.

00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:07.120
I pulled up a chair, not too close, just near.

00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:08.639
I didn't ask questions.

00:13:08.879 --> 00:13:10.240
I didn't make demands.

00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:11.759
I just sat there.

00:13:12.399 --> 00:13:16.399
And that's what co-regulation actually looks like.

00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:19.759
I didn't try to teach him anything in that moment.

00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:24.799
I was just bringing my regulated nervous system into proximity with his.

00:13:25.279 --> 00:13:28.080
And after a few minutes, I could see it.

00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:34.000
His breathing started to slow, the humming stopped, and his shoulders dropped.

00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:40.000
And eventually he looked up at me and he said, so quietly, I'm okay now.

00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:48.080
Meanwhile, the teacher's at her desk probably wondering if I'm conducting a meditation session or if I'm actually counseling.

00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:55.759
If I'd kept pushing consequences and demands in that moment, I would have taught him that adults are not safe when he's overwhelmed.

00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:05.120
Co-regulation is the tool, but knowing when to use it versus when it will backfire is the skill.

00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:08.960
And that's exactly what we practice together in the mastermind.

00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:10.480
More on that in a little bit.

00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:15.440
But let's compare Jordan to Mia, fifth grader.

00:14:15.679 --> 00:14:22.720
She'd come to my office looking genuinely distressed, fidgeting, wringing her hands, sometimes they were even tears.

00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:24.960
Miss Johnson, I need to call my mom.

00:14:25.039 --> 00:14:25.919
I don't feel good.

00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:27.519
My stomach hurts.

00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:30.399
And she looked anxious.

00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:37.759
She wouldn't make eye contact, her voice was shaking, and all the signals said dysregulation.

00:14:38.559 --> 00:14:42.559
So at first I let her call home because that's what we do, right?

00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:49.360
We honor their feelings, we validate their distress, but then I started noticing something.

00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:57.200
She never felt sick during art or recess or on the days when there was a substitute in the class was watching a movie.

00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:05.360
Only during classes when there was a test or a challenging assignment or partner work that she didn't want to do.

00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:13.200
And when I finally said very gently but firmly, Mia, I hear you, and we'll check in after class to see how you're feeling.

00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:15.279
But right now, you're staying.

00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:16.879
You know what happened?

00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:18.639
She didn't melt down.

00:15:19.039 --> 00:15:22.159
She rolled her eyes, she huffed at me.

00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:26.559
She did that preteen, uh, fine that could win an Oscar.

00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:30.559
And then she walked back to her desk and she opened her test booklet.

00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:33.600
Ten minutes later, she was still fine.

00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:38.240
No tears, no stomachache, and it turned out she could do it after all.

00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:39.519
Shocking.

00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:44.720
The so-called crisis ended when she realized she wasn't getting out of it.

00:15:44.799 --> 00:15:46.720
And that tells you everything.

00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:54.159
So in both situations, we had the same word, refusal, but completely different states.

00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:59.360
And if you responded the same way to both of them, you'd fail one of them.

00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:04.720
Now, the initial read is just your hypothesis.

00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:12.000
You don't lock it in during the crisis, you confirm it afterward, once the situation is under control.

00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:20.000
There are three questions you ask yourself, and yes, the sequence of these questions matters.

00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:21.120
Okay.

00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:23.120
Question one.

00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:28.879
Did the student recover relatively quickly and engage in problem solving?

00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:38.559
If the answer is yes, if they bounced back fast, if they can now talk about what happened and what to do differently, that's pointing toward defiance.

00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:41.679
Their brain was online the whole time.

00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:51.440
If the answer is no, if they're still exhausted, still struggling to articulate, still emotionally raw, that's dysregulation.

00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:54.480
The nervous system is still coming back online.

00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:56.559
Question two.

00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:01.759
Does the student show remorse or confusion about their actions?

00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:07.039
Now, be careful here because this is where a lot of folks get tripped up.

00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:11.440
Some students have learned that remorse is the magic key.

00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:16.880
They cry, they apologize, they say all the right things, and the adults back off.

00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:22.079
So you need to ask: is this the same remorse I heard last week?

00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:27.119
Does the behavior change or just the apology?

00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:37.119
If there's genuine confusion, if they truly don't understand what happened or why they reacted that way, that's more likely dysregulation.

00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:43.839
If it's performative remorse followed by the same behavior next week, that's strategy.

00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:46.079
Question three.

00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:50.480
Was this a repeated pattern under similar triggers?

00:17:51.279 --> 00:17:54.480
This is the one that tells you almost everything.

00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:59.920
Does the same situation trigger the same response week after week, month after month?

00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:04.400
Does it happen in multiple contexts or just in specific ones?

00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:14.319
A student who melts down in math class every single Tuesday during tests, but never during any other subjects, is not showing random dysregulation.

00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:17.759
That's a learned response to a specific trigger.

00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:20.079
They might genuinely feel anxious.

00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:28.079
I'm not saying they're faking the emotion, but the pattern tells you that this isn't a nervous system that's constantly overwhelmed.

00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:30.400
It's a nervous system that's learned.

00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:34.559
This situation is too much, and escape is the answer.

00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:43.039
That student needs something different than the student whose nervous system is in overdrive all day, every day across all contexts.

00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:48.079
The pattern tells the truth every single time.

00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:51.119
Okay, pause.

00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:53.279
I know I just gave you a lot.

00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:57.359
Let me show you what this actually looks like when it all comes together.

00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:03.119
Quick scenario: a student refuses to present their project in front of the class.

00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:09.599
They put their head down and won't respond when the teacher calls on them, so the teacher sends them to you.

00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:16.640
In your office, they're fidgeting, they won't make eye contact with you, and they just keep saying, I can't do it, I just can't.

00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:19.920
Initial read could go either way.

00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:23.039
So you start asking the confirmation questions.

00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:24.960
Did they recover quickly?

00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:25.680
Nope.

00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:28.480
They're still visibly anxious 20 minutes later.

00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:31.440
Do they show confusion or remorse?

00:19:31.759 --> 00:19:32.160
Yes.

00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:34.799
They say, I don't know why I get like this.

00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:36.559
I hate that I do this.

00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:38.319
Is it a pattern?

00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:39.359
Yes.

00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:44.240
You check with their teachers, and it happens every time there's a presentation.

00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:51.519
But it also happens with partner work and reading aloud in pretty much any situation where they're in the spotlight.

00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:54.079
That's not strategic avoidance.

00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:55.920
That's social anxiety.

00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:05.759
This student needs graduated exposure, coping skills, maybe a 504 plan, not consequences for so-called refusal.

00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:08.160
You see how the questions guide you?

00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:14.720
And so at this point, I need to tell you something that's going to change the way you see about 30% of your crisis calls.

00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:19.359
There are four big mistakes I see even experienced counselors make.

00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:24.240
And I know this because I'm in consultation with school counselors each and every week.

00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:29.680
I'm going to walk you through these four because once you see them, you can't unsee them.

00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:36.319
Mistake number one, assuming that remorse always means dysregulation.

00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:40.880
I just told you about this, but it is so common, I'm going to say it again.

00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:46.720
A student melts down, gets sent to your office, and within minutes they're crying and apologizing.

00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:47.759
I'm so sorry.

00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:49.200
I don't know why I did that.

00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:51.039
I feel terrible.

00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:53.519
It looks like dysregulation.

00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:57.359
The emotion is real and the remorse seems genuine.

00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:02.079
But ask yourself, is this the same apology I heard last Tuesday?

00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:04.240
And the Tuesday before that?

00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:06.960
Does the behavior actually change?

00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:09.759
Or do I just get really good apologies?

00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:18.720
Some students, especially the smart, perceptive ones, have learned that remorse is how you unlock adult forgiveness.

00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:21.599
The real tell isn't do they feel bad?

00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:24.480
It's does the pattern change?

00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:30.880
Mistake number two, thinking that quiet withdrawal is always shutdown.

00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:37.920
A student refuses to work, puts their head down, won't engage, they look checked out, maybe even dissociated.

00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:39.200
Easy call, right?

00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:40.319
Dysregulation.

00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:42.000
Classic shutdown.

00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:48.000
But watch what happens when you say, okay, you can take come take a break in the counseling office.

00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:49.759
Do they perk up immediately?

00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:55.200
Are they suddenly able to chat, make eye contact, joke around, ask what digits you have?

00:21:55.440 --> 00:22:00.559
Because true shutdown doesn't flip off like a light switch the moment the demands are removed.

00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:09.759
If that dysregulation disappears the instant they get what they want, you're looking at strategic avoidance, not nervous system overload.

00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:13.920
Mistake number three, missing the audience.

00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:16.000
This one is big.

00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:17.680
A student escalates.

00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:20.079
They're yelling dramatic, big emotions.

00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:23.519
It feels like dysregulation because it's so intense.

00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:25.119
But look around.

00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:26.480
Who's watching?

00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:30.880
Is this happening in the hallway between classes when there's an audience of peers?

00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:34.720
Does it happen in front of the class but never one-on-one in your office?

00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:38.640
Does the behavior intensify when other students are nearby?

00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:43.359
Real dysregulation happens regardless of who's watching.

00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:53.039
If the behavior only shows up when there are witnesses, or if it gets bigger when adults engage and other kids can see, the audience is the point.

00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:55.279
That's not survival mode.

00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:57.839
That's typically social strategy.

00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:02.640
And mistake number four, ignoring the context pattern.

00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:05.759
A student has a complete meltdown in math class.

00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:11.039
Screaming, tears can't be consoled, and all the physiological signs are there.

00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:14.960
Shaking, rapid breathing, can't articulate what's wrong.

00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:18.400
You look at that moment and you think dysregulation.

00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:21.759
This kid needs co-regulation and a break.

00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:24.720
But then you check with their other teachers.

00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:28.640
Oh yeah, this happens every time there's a test in math like clockwork.

00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:31.519
But she's fine and class never had a problem.

00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:34.960
Here's what you're actually seeing.

00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:37.519
Yes, the nervous system is activated.

00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:39.200
Yes, the distress is real.

00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:41.119
I'm not saying she's faking it.

00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:43.839
But it's not random dysregulation.

00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:48.640
It's an anxiety response to a specific predictable trigger.

00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:55.920
And every time you remove her when it happens, you teach her nervous system math tests are too dangerous to face.

00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:58.079
Escape is the answer.

00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:02.400
This student doesn't need endless co-regulation breaks.

00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:07.759
She needs anxiety coping skills and gradual exposure to the trigger.

00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:13.359
She needs to learn that discomfort isn't danger and that she can handle hard things.

00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:16.880
The pattern tells you everything.

00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:24.480
Same trigger, same response across time in a specific context is not dysregulation.

00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:29.119
That's learned avoidance with a real physiological component.

00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:32.160
Don't just look at the moment.

00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:34.160
Look at the pattern.

00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:37.920
Look at what happens before, during, and after.

00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:39.759
Look at who's watching.

00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:45.440
And look at whether the response changes based on consequences or audience.

00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:48.559
That's how you avoid these traps.

00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:57.599
And look, I'll be honest, I still have moments when I stand there and think, I have no idea which lane this is.

00:24:57.839 --> 00:25:01.599
The framework does not make you suddenly omniscient, right?

00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:03.599
It makes you systematic.

00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:08.559
It gives you a way to gather data when your gut really isn't sure.

00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:15.039
Now, some of you are thinking, that sounds great, but I 100% know my admin won't back me up.

00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:19.519
Or my teachers think trauma-informed means no consequences.

00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:21.279
That's real, right?

00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:22.400
I know it is.

00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:27.599
And that's exactly why we practice the language scripts in my mastermind.

00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:32.240
How to frame this in a way that gets buy-in instead of pushback.

00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:39.440
Because you can have the best framework in the world, but if you can't get your campus on board, you're working uphill alone.

00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:45.039
So let's go back to that cafeteria one final time.

00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:55.039
You're standing there, the students at the corner table, hood up, staring at the floor, everyone's watching, the teacher's waiting for you to do something.

00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:59.200
But this time you know exactly what you're looking at.

00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:04.720
You've gathered your data, you checked the signals, you've made your read.

00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:15.599
Rapid breathing, trembling hands, glassy eyes, can't verbalize, no audience, but the behavior continues.

00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:18.400
This is dysregulation.

00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:21.440
So you don't demand.

00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:23.680
You don't redirect.

00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:29.119
You don't launch into problem solving or pestering them with questions.

00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:36.640
You pull up a chair and you sit and you breathe slowly.

00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:43.680
You bring your regulated nervous system into proximity with his and you wait.

00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:47.519
After a few minutes, you see it.

00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:50.000
His breathing starts to slow.

00:26:50.319 --> 00:26:53.200
His shoulders drop just slightly.

00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:56.079

Defiance vs. Dysregulation: The Split-Second Call That Changes Everything

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